| Club satement on 18:28 - Apr 7 with 2514 views | isitme |
I thought the old Hornets took a loan from the RFL and used their shares in the ground as collateral. When they folded the RFL took ownership of the shares. Now I am under the impression that what happened was technically illegal? |  | |  |
| Club satement on 19:02 - Apr 7 with 2448 views | MoonyDale |
| Club satement on 18:28 - Apr 7 by isitme |
I thought the old Hornets took a loan from the RFL and used their shares in the ground as collateral. When they folded the RFL took ownership of the shares. Now I am under the impression that what happened was technically illegal? |
To all intents and purposes you are correct... [Post edited 7 Apr 2014 19:02]
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| Club satement on 20:02 - Apr 7 with 2349 views | Sandyman |
Some hysterically diluted stuff on Hornets forum thread about this 
They really seem to think they have a say on the stadium company and that the RFL should bow to Hornets' fans every whim. They even "blame" our recent success and Keith Hill for the issue arising again!
There are so few of them, with virtually no young fans coming in to replace the old fogeys. We got more through the turnstiles in January than they will for a whole season. If they don't like what is happening at a stadium they have no say in, let them find their own venue which they can have absolute control of. Surely the "mates" they reckon they have on the Council can sort it for them ? Or is being responsible for your own accommodation a step too far for them? It was when they had a part share in Spotland. |  | | |
| Club satement on 20:29 - Apr 7 with 2280 views | jimmysbaldhead |
It's mayhem on t'hornets board they have had 18 whole replies on this topic...some of which to be fair are from Col trying to be reasonable, which they don't seem to get. |  | | |
| Club satement on 21:34 - Apr 7 with 2167 views | 49thseason |
Accounts filed for Stadium Company up to last year
http://companycheck.co.uk/company/02483618/DENEHURST-PARK-ROCHDALE-LIMITED/finan
2009 2010 2011 2012 2013
Cash £232 £2,797 £4,152 £2,126 £11
Net Worth £1,009,540 £1,035,571 £944,113 £865,788 £793,328
Total Current Liabilities £249,031 £209,121 £153,861 £217,987 £237,791
Total Current Assets £89,879 £47,719 £38,584 £44,725 £11,740
There are 1.1m x £1 shares in issue with RAFC and RL having 500K each and RMBC with 100K, Declining net worth and assets and rising liabilities indicates a deteriorating position which needs addressing one way or another. |  | | |
| Club satement on 21:48 - Apr 7 with 2135 views | judd |
Valuation of Shares
It is usual for some form of valuation exercise to be carried out when a company is issuing new shares or when the company itself is being sold. The valuation will seek to determine the current worth of the shares.
In the case of public quoted companies, the valuation exercise has a defined starting point. A market place already exists in which the company's shares are traded regularly on a recognised exchange, for example, the London Stock Exchange. The share price of the company would provide a reasonable starting point for valuing additional shares to be issued by the company or for the business itself.
In smaller companies with few assets and insubstantial trade, the value placed on each share may be its nominal value.
In business entities where there are plentiful assets (some of which may be intangible), more complex and substantive work will be required. Accountants may be brought in to provide an up to date valuation and produce a report outlining their assumptions, methodology and conclusions.
For trading limited companies there are different valuation models which are sometimes employed to find the value of a company or its shares.
The different valuation models are:
Net asset values
Discounted earnings
Scrap or break up value
Replacement cost
Multiples of turnover
In practice, these valuation methods will be used to find a minimum and maximum value. The parties then negotiate, weighing up different factors to arrive at an appropriate final figure. |  |
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| Club satement on 22:10 - Apr 7 with 2087 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Club satement on 21:48 - Apr 7 by judd |
Valuation of Shares
It is usual for some form of valuation exercise to be carried out when a company is issuing new shares or when the company itself is being sold. The valuation will seek to determine the current worth of the shares.
In the case of public quoted companies, the valuation exercise has a defined starting point. A market place already exists in which the company's shares are traded regularly on a recognised exchange, for example, the London Stock Exchange. The share price of the company would provide a reasonable starting point for valuing additional shares to be issued by the company or for the business itself.
In smaller companies with few assets and insubstantial trade, the value placed on each share may be its nominal value.
In business entities where there are plentiful assets (some of which may be intangible), more complex and substantive work will be required. Accountants may be brought in to provide an up to date valuation and produce a report outlining their assumptions, methodology and conclusions.
For trading limited companies there are different valuation models which are sometimes employed to find the value of a company or its shares.
The different valuation models are:
Net asset values
Discounted earnings
Scrap or break up value
Replacement cost
Multiples of turnover
In practice, these valuation methods will be used to find a minimum and maximum value. The parties then negotiate, weighing up different factors to arrive at an appropriate final figure. |
Totally correct Judd - for example companies have a NAV in excess of total valuation of the company regularly - e.g Barc - so in real terms the valuation is often smoke and mirrors.
The valuations don't mean a lot - you would pay in excess of 2 million for the ground and land on its own I would say - yet accounts show less than this I would guess.
C.D. knows what he is doing so lets hope we buy it up, if Hornets bugger things up again its their own fault - the 500 or so fans that bother turning up can go to Mayfield or wherever - No sympathy for them at all. |  |
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| Club satement on 22:19 - Apr 7 with 2064 views | judd |
I think in terms of valuation, the Company is clearly performing poorly. The land valuation is a mute point in that it only comes into play if it is to be sold for another purpose other than what is is used for currently.
The RFL cannot seriously value their shareholding "in the millions" , especially given the reported £75k loan that led to their share acquisition.
As for the RMBC interest, as an impartial mediator in the past then they did have a value, I suppose. It no longer has the interests of Hornets to care for, and given the state of LA finances, anything they can get for dead shareholding is a bonus. | |
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| Club satement on 22:30 - Apr 7 with 2026 views | BigKindo |
| Club satement on 22:19 - Apr 7 by judd |
I think in terms of valuation, the Company is clearly performing poorly. The land valuation is a mute point in that it only comes into play if it is to be sold for another purpose other than what is is used for currently.
The RFL cannot seriously value their shareholding "in the millions" , especially given the reported £75k loan that led to their share acquisition.
As for the RMBC interest, as an impartial mediator in the past then they did have a value, I suppose. It no longer has the interests of Hornets to care for, and given the state of LA finances, anything they can get for dead shareholding is a bonus. |
I thought that there was a covenant on the land that it could only be used for sports purposes? |  | | |
| Club satement on 22:33 - Apr 7 with 2015 views | judd |
| Club satement on 22:30 - Apr 7 by BigKindo |
I thought that there was a covenant on the land that it could only be used for sports purposes? |
Can't say I have heard that. If true, it's worth nowt.
If not, then I'm sure an agreement can be reached which would prevent the sale of the land if the shares are to be acquired by RAFC.
I seem to remember the land at Rochdale CC on Dane Street being sold under such circumstances, however. | |
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| Club satement on 22:33 - Apr 7 with 2016 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Club satement on 22:19 - Apr 7 by judd |
I think in terms of valuation, the Company is clearly performing poorly. The land valuation is a mute point in that it only comes into play if it is to be sold for another purpose other than what is is used for currently.
The RFL cannot seriously value their shareholding "in the millions" , especially given the reported £75k loan that led to their share acquisition.
As for the RMBC interest, as an impartial mediator in the past then they did have a value, I suppose. It no longer has the interests of Hornets to care for, and given the state of LA finances, anything they can get for dead shareholding is a bonus. |
You could put the whole thing under the catagory of "A Pure Property Punt" if the RFL or anyone else thinks there is a long term value - The only long term value is potential long term improvement in the club (e.g Premier or Championship) or a development on the property.
MWL (Millwall Holdings) as was suffered a in this way - people were buying the shares on back of location and development potential and also on results and potential premiership promotion. I bought a load at something stupid like .16p - had about 20 million of them and on buying them the market makers moved the price 2 spots - spread was stupid but closed them out at about .25p and had to pay premium to get out!!!
6m later they basically went pop - having hit around .4p a share. Football does not make money as a rule - its heart that buys shares not profit. Ground and land has nominal value but RFL will just want rid of the things asap - as will the council - poisoned chalice!!!! | |
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| Club satement on 22:38 - Apr 7 with 1994 views | SuddenLad |
| Club satement on 22:33 - Apr 7 by Thacks_Rabbits |
You could put the whole thing under the catagory of "A Pure Property Punt" if the RFL or anyone else thinks there is a long term value - The only long term value is potential long term improvement in the club (e.g Premier or Championship) or a development on the property.
MWL (Millwall Holdings) as was suffered a in this way - people were buying the shares on back of location and development potential and also on results and potential premiership promotion. I bought a load at something stupid like .16p - had about 20 million of them and on buying them the market makers moved the price 2 spots - spread was stupid but closed them out at about .25p and had to pay premium to get out!!!
6m later they basically went pop - having hit around .4p a share. Football does not make money as a rule - its heart that buys shares not profit. Ground and land has nominal value but RFL will just want rid of the things asap - as will the council - poisoned chalice!!!! |
The shares are worth zilch to RFL.
If the boot was on the other foot, and it was dale who were passing the begging bowl round, they (RFL) would be in a very powerful position.
As it is, they are useless. Getting rid is their best option. Hornets are never, ever going to be in a financial position to get them back.
From the RFL's point of view, it's a 'no brainer'. |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Club satement on 22:40 - Apr 7 with 1987 views | judd |
| Club satement on 22:33 - Apr 7 by Thacks_Rabbits |
You could put the whole thing under the catagory of "A Pure Property Punt" if the RFL or anyone else thinks there is a long term value - The only long term value is potential long term improvement in the club (e.g Premier or Championship) or a development on the property.
MWL (Millwall Holdings) as was suffered a in this way - people were buying the shares on back of location and development potential and also on results and potential premiership promotion. I bought a load at something stupid like .16p - had about 20 million of them and on buying them the market makers moved the price 2 spots - spread was stupid but closed them out at about .25p and had to pay premium to get out!!!
6m later they basically went pop - having hit around .4p a share. Football does not make money as a rule - its heart that buys shares not profit. Ground and land has nominal value but RFL will just want rid of the things asap - as will the council - poisoned chalice!!!! |
Aye, but this is a private sale so it's down to agreed methodology in valuing the shares and some hard bargaining.
I love CD's message. It's clearly well thought out strategy and no doubt advanced. I have been wondering why we've gone public at this stage. Perhaps we're looking at getting 11 points clear of play offs and going into admin. | |
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| Club satement on 22:48 - Apr 7 with 1968 views | TyroneShoelaces |
What the hornets supporters must tak into consideration
Is the following.
I may think my house is worth a million pounds but if the
. best offer I've had is 250k then that may be its true worth
Add into the equasitjon that my mortgage lender is about to
Foreclose because I owe them 75k which I am.unable to
Pay immediately or raise funds to cover the 75 , then in
Actual fact an offer of 80k makes it good deal as I become
Debt free and have something (however little) to try and
Start again. If I refuse the 80k then the odds areim left with
No home and nothing to start to try and re build.
This is the scenario hornets entered Into and if not careful
They could end up homeless and skint, rather than just skint.
If I was one if their fans I'd be grateful that at least in CD they
Have a lender who's prepared to let them stay in their home
But on the proviso they pay their dues. |  | | |
| Club satement on 22:53 - Apr 7 with 1953 views | judd |
| Club satement on 22:48 - Apr 7 by TyroneShoelaces |
What the hornets supporters must tak into consideration
Is the following.
I may think my house is worth a million pounds but if the
. best offer I've had is 250k then that may be its true worth
Add into the equasitjon that my mortgage lender is about to
Foreclose because I owe them 75k which I am.unable to
Pay immediately or raise funds to cover the 75 , then in
Actual fact an offer of 80k makes it good deal as I become
Debt free and have something (however little) to try and
Start again. If I refuse the 80k then the odds areim left with
No home and nothing to start to try and re build.
This is the scenario hornets entered Into and if not careful
They could end up homeless and skint, rather than just skint.
If I was one if their fans I'd be grateful that at least in CD they
Have a lender who's prepared to let them stay in their home
But on the proviso they pay their dues. |
Do you expect the Hornets supporters to be consulted by the RFL?
It seems that Hornets fans are extremely fearful of a landlord who has been party to years of broken promises from an equal tenant.
And I seriously hope Hornets survive and grow. | |
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| Club satement on 23:45 - Apr 7 with 1878 views | MoonyDale |
| Club satement on 22:40 - Apr 7 by judd |
Aye, but this is a private sale so it's down to agreed methodology in valuing the shares and some hard bargaining.
I love CD's message. It's clearly well thought out strategy and no doubt advanced. I have been wondering why we've gone public at this stage. Perhaps we're looking at getting 11 points clear of play offs and going into admin. |
I hope your tongue was firmly in your cheek when that thought sprung to mind Judd...... | |
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| Club satement on 05:38 - Apr 8 with 1799 views | DiddyDave |
It stands to reason then that ground sharing is a must,so if it`s not Hornets,then it needs to be some other football team of any code,Union,League,even -wait for it-Oldham Athletic if they`re still in dire straits at Boundary Park. All this antagonism to other codes and rival football teams is old hat,United need City just as City need United. Dale need Hornets,or some other footy team to keep the wolves from the door especially when crowds are still less than break even. Selling Hogan is a must at the end of the season,promotion or not and we all know that,but equally,so is having somebody else to help pay the bills. | | | |
| Club satement on 07:22 - Apr 8 with 1756 views | TalkingSutty |
| Club satement on 05:38 - Apr 8 by DiddyDave |
It stands to reason then that ground sharing is a must,so if it`s not Hornets,then it needs to be some other football team of any code,Union,League,even -wait for it-Oldham Athletic if they`re still in dire straits at Boundary Park. All this antagonism to other codes and rival football teams is old hat,United need City just as City need United. Dale need Hornets,or some other footy team to keep the wolves from the door especially when crowds are still less than break even. Selling Hogan is a must at the end of the season,promotion or not and we all know that,but equally,so is having somebody else to help pay the bills. |
But we all know Hornets dont pay their bills and struggle to contribute to the day to day running of the stadium. |  | | |
| Club satement on 09:40 - Apr 8 with 1670 views | ParkinsGimp |
Thats true TS my thoughts exactly, Hornets is a shambles of a club who have been deceiptful for years and certainly dont pay their way. Lets have a clause in the lease for eviction on non-payment then we can have shut of the diluted moaners for ever.
They have had numerous chances to sort themselves out.
As for Dunphy I must admit a great move, I still dont attain to his ultimate wisdom on the footballing side since he has fallen on Keith Hill twice by default and his other managerial decisions have been disastorous to say the least. | | | |
| Club satement on 09:49 - Apr 8 with 1664 views | ColDale |
I believe that relations between the two clubs are as good as they ever have been, and there is no reason to believe Hornets have not been paying their way.
What has been missed in all of this, is that when the old Rochdale Hornets folded, there was an opportunity then to get rid of Hornets should that be our intentions. Given the percentage required to pass any resolution on the Stadium Company, that would have allowed us almost power of veto to deny what by all accounts and purposes was a brand new club playing at Spotland. We would have been the lead party at negotiating with Hornets NewCo. We obviously did so because it was in our interests to have Hornets playing at Spotland, so why would that change now? We're not suddenly in a position where we are so flush with cash that any rent from Hornets is meaningless.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| Club satement on 10:51 - Apr 8 with 1605 views | TyroneShoelaces |
| Club satement on 22:53 - Apr 7 by judd |
Do you expect the Hornets supporters to be consulted by the RFL?
It seems that Hornets fans are extremely fearful of a landlord who has been party to years of broken promises from an equal tenant.
And I seriously hope Hornets survive and grow. |
the RFL are under no obligation to consult and i doubt they would.
why are Hornets fans fearful of RAFC as a landlord, when it appears
that RAFC have more than bent over backwards to help, particularly
in respect of late/unpaid monies.
i'm not a Hornets basher, i was brought up in a Rugby League household,
i'm just making observations like most. | | | |
| Club satement on 11:20 - Apr 8 with 1573 views | BigKindo |
Perhaps Hornets, the RFL and RMBC could buy out Dales share and give us a 100 year lease at a peppercorn rent?  | | | |
| Club satement on 11:31 - Apr 8 with 1544 views | judd |
| Club satement on 10:51 - Apr 8 by TyroneShoelaces |
the RFL are under no obligation to consult and i doubt they would.
why are Hornets fans fearful of RAFC as a landlord, when it appears
that RAFC have more than bent over backwards to help, particularly
in respect of late/unpaid monies.
i'm not a Hornets basher, i was brought up in a Rugby League household,
i'm just making observations like most. |
Oh.
You wrote on your forum:
"I know the RFL board are stupid but I'd be surprised if they were that stupid Doug. It would be tantamount to closing Hornets down if the shares were sold to the football club. We had a very close shave before we formed the Co-op. Anybody who thinks the football club have our best interests at heart isn't dealing with a full deck. "
Pugwash likes this
And
"We'd be crazy to take their word, verbal or in writing Puggy. There's a significant faction at the football club that would like Hornets to go out of business. "
And
"I don't trust any representative of the football club regarding this issue. Coldale's response is typical, if you believe that you'll believe anything.
We need to lobby our elected board members to pressure the RFL. If they are thinking of stabbing us in the back they need to think again. "
And
"This issue needs addressing promptly. We need to make clear to the RFL that if they make any deal with the football club re the shares they are in effect signing our death warrant.
It sounds to me like they're not aware of the real situation at the stadium, they need putting in the picture."
And
"Sorry Dave but you've been too far away for too long to have a realistic grasp of the situation. If this comes to fruition Hornets will eventually be forced out of the ground and probably out of existence. Most football club fans would be prepared to take the financial hit to remove Hornets from the scene.
You only have to read the rantings on the football club message board to see the level of antagonism against our club. "
Think you've answered your own question. | |
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| Club satement on 11:42 - Apr 8 with 1517 views | TyroneShoelaces |
| Club satement on 11:31 - Apr 8 by judd |
Oh.
You wrote on your forum:
"I know the RFL board are stupid but I'd be surprised if they were that stupid Doug. It would be tantamount to closing Hornets down if the shares were sold to the football club. We had a very close shave before we formed the Co-op. Anybody who thinks the football club have our best interests at heart isn't dealing with a full deck. "
Pugwash likes this
And
"We'd be crazy to take their word, verbal or in writing Puggy. There's a significant faction at the football club that would like Hornets to go out of business. "
And
"I don't trust any representative of the football club regarding this issue. Coldale's response is typical, if you believe that you'll believe anything.
We need to lobby our elected board members to pressure the RFL. If they are thinking of stabbing us in the back they need to think again. "
And
"This issue needs addressing promptly. We need to make clear to the RFL that if they make any deal with the football club re the shares they are in effect signing our death warrant.
It sounds to me like they're not aware of the real situation at the stadium, they need putting in the picture."
And
"Sorry Dave but you've been too far away for too long to have a realistic grasp of the situation. If this comes to fruition Hornets will eventually be forced out of the ground and probably out of existence. Most football club fans would be prepared to take the financial hit to remove Hornets from the scene.
You only have to read the rantings on the football club message board to see the level of antagonism against our club. "
Think you've answered your own question. |
think your getting me mixed up with someone else Judd.
never posted on Hornets Board,
might be similar/same user name, but definately NOT ME | | | |
| Club satement on 11:43 - Apr 8 with 1515 views | ColDale |
| Club satement on 11:31 - Apr 8 by judd |
Oh.
You wrote on your forum:
"I know the RFL board are stupid but I'd be surprised if they were that stupid Doug. It would be tantamount to closing Hornets down if the shares were sold to the football club. We had a very close shave before we formed the Co-op. Anybody who thinks the football club have our best interests at heart isn't dealing with a full deck. "
Pugwash likes this
And
"We'd be crazy to take their word, verbal or in writing Puggy. There's a significant faction at the football club that would like Hornets to go out of business. "
And
"I don't trust any representative of the football club regarding this issue. Coldale's response is typical, if you believe that you'll believe anything.
We need to lobby our elected board members to pressure the RFL. If they are thinking of stabbing us in the back they need to think again. "
And
"This issue needs addressing promptly. We need to make clear to the RFL that if they make any deal with the football club re the shares they are in effect signing our death warrant.
It sounds to me like they're not aware of the real situation at the stadium, they need putting in the picture."
And
"Sorry Dave but you've been too far away for too long to have a realistic grasp of the situation. If this comes to fruition Hornets will eventually be forced out of the ground and probably out of existence. Most football club fans would be prepared to take the financial hit to remove Hornets from the scene.
You only have to read the rantings on the football club message board to see the level of antagonism against our club. "
Think you've answered your own question. |
I suspect it might be two people with the same username, judging by their posts | | | |
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