| Air aisa. 08:24 - Oct 30 with 1756 views | connell10 |
Just reading on news now that Air Asia is in a spot of bother. Maybe old news but there is three reports on there. |  |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| Air aisa. on 09:24 - Oct 30 with 1674 views | pomanjou |
Sauce?
My Annual Account source says his money is unsecured. What a relief.........
Brentford ? Qpr 2 |  |
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| Air aisa. on 09:41 - Oct 30 with 1624 views | davman |
No you are not, you are reading that Tony and his associates took loans out for other ventures (probably us(!)) guaranteed against Air Asia and that the share price of Air Asia has dropped, so they are looking at alternate ways of 'guarantee-ing' the loans.
Aside from the share price dipping below the level against which the loan was guaranteed (and there is no way of knowing what that was), there is nothing to indicate that trouble is coming (just yet).
Anyway, we are continually told that Tony is not the sole investor, so it shouldn't matter too much, just yet anyway...
But, with the ridiculous debt they have placed us under, trouble is inevitable at some point. Their exit strategy would be interesting to hear as, without writing off huge slices of that debt, they'd never sell us...
Of course, as it was THEIR gamble, not ours, THEY should be liable for that debt NOT the club, shouldn't they? |  |
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| Air aisa. on 09:50 - Oct 30 with 1589 views | connell10 |
| Air aisa. on 09:41 - Oct 30 by davman |
No you are not, you are reading that Tony and his associates took loans out for other ventures (probably us(!)) guaranteed against Air Asia and that the share price of Air Asia has dropped, so they are looking at alternate ways of 'guarantee-ing' the loans.
Aside from the share price dipping below the level against which the loan was guaranteed (and there is no way of knowing what that was), there is nothing to indicate that trouble is coming (just yet).
Anyway, we are continually told that Tony is not the sole investor, so it shouldn't matter too much, just yet anyway...
But, with the ridiculous debt they have placed us under, trouble is inevitable at some point. Their exit strategy would be interesting to hear as, without writing off huge slices of that debt, they'd never sell us...
Of course, as it was THEIR gamble, not ours, THEY should be liable for that debt NOT the club, shouldn't they? |
Yes they should, they created the debt. | |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| Air Asia. on 09:55 - Oct 30 with 1569 views | danehoop |
| Air aisa. on 09:41 - Oct 30 by davman |
No you are not, you are reading that Tony and his associates took loans out for other ventures (probably us(!)) guaranteed against Air Asia and that the share price of Air Asia has dropped, so they are looking at alternate ways of 'guarantee-ing' the loans.
Aside from the share price dipping below the level against which the loan was guaranteed (and there is no way of knowing what that was), there is nothing to indicate that trouble is coming (just yet).
Anyway, we are continually told that Tony is not the sole investor, so it shouldn't matter too much, just yet anyway...
But, with the ridiculous debt they have placed us under, trouble is inevitable at some point. Their exit strategy would be interesting to hear as, without writing off huge slices of that debt, they'd never sell us...
Of course, as it was THEIR gamble, not ours, THEY should be liable for that debt NOT the club, shouldn't they? |
Looks quite serious:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/airasia-founder-
At least in the short term. Notable mention of the laosns being taken for punts on us and Caterham cars. Would also possibly explain the sudden need for QPR to return to the big league and the sudden coking off of finances.
Longer term this is probably less damaging for Tune Group and indeed may actually make them a stronger entity (most of the business is pretty cash generative). But you could see them focusing back on the basics and dumping the less profitable/less attractive parts of their business empire. I suspect that we will be one of those parts of the business that will be sold. The question will be the value of the asset , if we are in the Prem obviously we are worth more - but probably not as much as TF paid in the first place. If we are still in the Championship I wonder if there will be a fire sale at the end of the season? |  |
| Never knowingly understood |
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| Air aisa. on 10:06 - Oct 30 with 1540 views | daveB |
no wonder he is desperate for promotion
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/30/us-airasia-loans-exclusive-idUSKCN0SO0
AirAsia founder Tony Fernandes began talks with bankers to take Asia's No.1 budget airline private after a plunge in its stock price put $200 million worth of loans...
AirAsia founder Tony Fernandes began talks with bankers to take Asia's No.1 budget airline private after a plunge in its stock price put $200 million worth of loans borrowed against AirAsia's shares at risk, people familiar with the situation told Reuters.
The Malaysian entrepreneur and his business partner Kamarudin Meranun, respectively Group CEO and Chairman of AirAsia Bhd (A IRA.KL), borrowed the money against their 19 percent indirect holding in AirAsia from Credit Suisse (CSGN.VX) and CIMB (CIMB.KL) to help fund private ventures, people familiar with the situation said.
A fall in AirAsia's share pr ice though has led to a breach of the loans' collate ral terms, according to two sources, and is one reason why the two businessmen have begun talks for a possible management-led buyout.
Fernandes and Kamarudin did not reply to emails sent by Reuters or phone calls made to them. A Malaysia-based spokeswoman at AirAsia declined comment.
The existence of the loans, which has not been publicly disclosed as the transaction is private, shows how the future of the airline, a key client of Airbu s in Asia, is tied to the other investments of its founders.
Two sources with knowledge of the situation said the loans were taken to help finance the 2011 purchase by Fernandes' holding company, Tune Group, of English soccer club Queens Park Rangers and to build up the Caterham Formula One team, two ventures which have subsequently struggled.
Share-backed loans, common among Asian tycoons, require a large amount of collateral as they are subject to stock market volatility.
It was not clear if Fernandes and his partners had been formally asked by the lenders to immediately provide more cash.
There is no evidence Fernandes and Kamarudin, who have built a business empire with a value that exceeds the worth of the share-backed loans, would be unable to repay the money, although some of their wealth is tied up in sports and other private ventures.
One source familiar with the situation said Fernandes would still be able to have a significant stake in AirAsia even after a privatization and continue to lead it.
A Hong Kong-based spokesman at Credit Suisse declined to comment. A CIMB spokeswoman did not respond to requests for comment.
Fernandes and his businesses are also long-standing clients of Credit Suisse and CIMB, which are both involved in the privatisation talks, several sources said.
SPORTS VENTURES
Fernandes ceased funding the Caterham team last year and later sold it. The team eventually went into administration, while loss-making Queens Park Rangers were relegated from England's top league in May this year.
In June, research firm GMT Research said AirAsia used transactions with its associate companies to inflate earnings and said it needed to be recapitalized, triggering a sell-off in the carrier's shares that by late August had shrunk the value of the founders' stake to around $100 million.
AirAsia has responded by saying it has a strong balance sheet and does not need additional capital.
The fall and its impact on the loans caused Fernandes to discuss a privatisation and restructuring plan of AirAsia, the airline he had built over 10 years from a two-plane operation into a billion-dollar business, two sources said.
All sources interviewed by Reuters declined to be identified because the discussions are private.
AirAsia's shares have partially regained ground since the summer. Its market value is currently about $1 billion.
The privatisation plan, now under discussion, envisages Fernandes and his partner selling their AirAsia stake, held through holding company Tune, to a special purpose vehicle, to allow them to pay off the loans, said one of the sources.
Sources say AirAsia has also been in talks with lessors, including cash-rich Chinese companies, to sell a stake in its leasing subsidiary.
This comes as AirAsia has been selling portions of its related businesses, including half of its stake in a joint venture with online travel company Expedia Inc (EXPE.O).
Fernandes, the face of the no-frills budget carrier's rise, has also built, through the Tune Group, a sprawling empire that includes a chain of budget hotels, an insurance firm, a mobile phone group and a school.
GMT Research's June report came when AirAsia, already under pressure from slowing tourist flows in Asia, was facing challenges from the December 2014 crash of an Airbus Group jet operated by AirAsia's Indonesian affiliate that killed 162 people.
The report helped push the airline's shares to their lowest levels since 2008.
Fernandes has steadfastly defended the company's finances and outlook and said the market was undervaluing AirAsia.
(Additional reporting by Yantoultra Ngui in KUALA LUMPUR and Siva Govindasamy; Editin g by Lisa Jucca and Rachel Armstrong) |  | | |
| Air aisa. on 10:42 - Oct 30 with 1441 views | Lblock |
Bungles reverse Midas touch knows no limits |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Air aisa. on 11:00 - Oct 30 with 1408 views | danehoop |
| Air aisa. on 10:42 - Oct 30 by Lblock |
Bungles reverse Midas touch knows no limits |
That isnt right at Lblock. What has hit his business has been a plane crash (coming as it did following two accidents involving Malaysias national carrier. That affected the perception of an otherwise very successful brand. The economic downtown affecting travel in the far east has arrived impacting on passenger number and profitability as well. Because of the nature of future aiviation fuel contracts, his airline hasnt yet had the full benefit of reduced fuel costs feeding into the bottom line.So basically a triple whammy of unrelated issues that have hurt Air Asia. If those hadn't happened there wouldnt be an major issue for Tune Group. The airline uses a proven effective formula to generate revenue and most of the rest of the group has been successful as well.
What is true is that the speculative ventures in sport have been gambles, one of which failed and the other one (QPR) is as yet not successful. Like most business leaders he isnt afraid to gamble on trying new things and has a pretty solid track record of being ruthless if something isnt performing.
So in the short term the group are definitely facing problems, but longer term they have solid core business and are experienced in running it. Buying it back for less than its real value probably makes good sense and will protect it from the vagaries of short terms market pressures. I just think they will restructure the business as part of that process to focus on the core. QPR doesnt feel like a core part of the Tune group and TF's decision to focus on the other parts of the business reflect that. I just wouldnt be surprised if we are sold off as soon as it makes sense to do so (although that doesnt mean a fire sale). | |
| Never knowingly understood |
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| Air aisa. on 11:34 - Oct 30 with 1349 views | Brightonhoop |
In fairness, I guess he and Tune couldn't have had any foresight or plan in place to deal with what happened, the disappearance of the Malaysian plane was always going to hit everybody else operating in that area, despite being a completely different entity. All airlines have to have a squeaky clean rep, and can be hindered by perceptions, as in this case, particularly when people are flying. Look at the rallying call after the German wings crash, the perception of safe travel in Europe, from Barcelona to Germany was shattered.
In the longer term it's probably better, but the risk is meanwhile lenders call in loans against falling share price, on an assett, us, QPR, that cannot cover it's liabilities. £200 Mil debt is a ridiculous position to be in and should never have happened. But it has, now Tune need to deal with it and reduce the exposure of the Club.
I dont know what the answer is, but I'd be looking for Promotion on a basis of going up, not extending contracts and not buying new players to compete get relegated and go for another promotion with minimal investment to get the Prem monies in to resolve our debt. First signs I thought of TF finally getting it right was declining Sherwoods financial demands. So there's hope, but £200 Mil debt for a Club our size is a very high water mark. |  | | |
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| Air aisa. on 11:47 - Oct 30 with 1322 views | Jamie |
Meh. Hate to say I told you so and all that... |  | | |
| Air aisa. on 12:06 - Oct 30 with 1290 views | Match82 |
| Air aisa. on 11:47 - Oct 30 by Jamie |
Meh. Hate to say I told you so and all that... |
"Hate to say I told you so and all that."
This is incorrect. |  | | |
| Air aisa. on 12:14 - Oct 30 with 1268 views | whittocksRs |
If banking covenants have been breached, there is trouble ahead. Banks will seek recompense, or to take over assets in exchange for debt. QPR is one of those assets, so this is a worry if correct.
I also don't like this 'AirAsia is undervalued' line Fernandes spouts - you often hear that from business bosses acting like ostriches.
It's starting to look like the sooner Fernandes sells QPR the betterfor our future. Wouldn't want to end up in the hands of the banks. | | | |
| Air aisa. on 12:24 - Oct 30 with 1254 views | Brightonhoop |
| Air aisa. on 12:14 - Oct 30 by whittocksRs |
If banking covenants have been breached, there is trouble ahead. Banks will seek recompense, or to take over assets in exchange for debt. QPR is one of those assets, so this is a worry if correct.
I also don't like this 'AirAsia is undervalued' line Fernandes spouts - you often hear that from business bosses acting like ostriches.
It's starting to look like the sooner Fernandes sells QPR the betterfor our future. Wouldn't want to end up in the hands of the banks. |
The Banks wouldn't touch us with a bargepole, for the same reasons they wouldn't lend us against the ABC debt previously. Closing down a Football Club would wreck reputations forever and a day....all they can do is penalise Tune Group if terms have been breached. Cant see anyone throwing £200 Mil at QPR, so Tune now have to dig themselves out. | | | |
| Air aisa. on 12:33 - Oct 30 with 1232 views | whittocksRs |
| Air aisa. on 12:24 - Oct 30 by Brightonhoop |
The Banks wouldn't touch us with a bargepole, for the same reasons they wouldn't lend us against the ABC debt previously. Closing down a Football Club would wreck reputations forever and a day....all they can do is penalise Tune Group if terms have been breached. Cant see anyone throwing £200 Mil at QPR, so Tune now have to dig themselves out. |
Not sure banks care about the reputational damage of closing down football clubs. They would happily take on QPR for the stadium, brand name, player contracts, etc. Plenty of value, relatively risk free in that to be shipped on to the highest bidder.
Think Tune are big enough to weather this, but the fact is they're heading towards serious financial trouble. I've seen this sort of thing - the types of press statements they're giving, the briefings against them - enough times in the day job to feel a bit uneasy about it all. | | | |
| Air aisa. on 13:10 - Oct 30 with 1179 views | bosh67 |
The airline had a plane crash and the aftermath of that. For a small operator it was always going to knacker finances. But, I am not too sure about the knock on for us at QPR. The only issue would be if Caterham and QPR were bought without the investor's knowledge. That is unlikely. |  |
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| Air aisa. on 13:58 - Oct 30 with 1102 views | Jamie |
| Air aisa. on 12:06 - Oct 30 by Match82 |
"Hate to say I told you so and all that."
This is incorrect. |
True, but then I have been for a few years now and it's good to see a few heads being forced out of the sand... | | | |
| Air aisa. on 14:57 - Oct 30 with 1026 views | DejR_vu |
| Air aisa. on 12:14 - Oct 30 by whittocksRs |
If banking covenants have been breached, there is trouble ahead. Banks will seek recompense, or to take over assets in exchange for debt. QPR is one of those assets, so this is a worry if correct.
I also don't like this 'AirAsia is undervalued' line Fernandes spouts - you often hear that from business bosses acting like ostriches.
It's starting to look like the sooner Fernandes sells QPR the betterfor our future. Wouldn't want to end up in the hands of the banks. |
The debt is a private debt secured against Air Asia stock. Just because the price of the stock falls below a minimum price agreed as providing adequate cover for the loan doesn't mean the lender can then pick and choose any other assets they fancy. They can call the loans in, or ask for additional security, but they can't hoover up anything else they like the look of. No one would borrow on terms where in the event of a technical breach all assets were exposed. | |
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| Air aisa. on 15:45 - Oct 30 with 975 views | PinnerPaul |
| Air aisa. on 09:50 - Oct 30 by connell10 |
Yes they should, they created the debt. |
Thats what the 'Limited" in limited company means.
The company is in debt, not the individuals. | | | |
| Air aisa. on 15:47 - Oct 30 with 970 views | PinnerPaul |
| Air aisa. on 12:14 - Oct 30 by whittocksRs |
If banking covenants have been breached, there is trouble ahead. Banks will seek recompense, or to take over assets in exchange for debt. QPR is one of those assets, so this is a worry if correct.
I also don't like this 'AirAsia is undervalued' line Fernandes spouts - you often hear that from business bosses acting like ostriches.
It's starting to look like the sooner Fernandes sells QPR the betterfor our future. Wouldn't want to end up in the hands of the banks. |
We're getting confused here - QPR isn't an asset if its just a pile of debt. | | | |
| Air aisa. on 15:49 - Oct 30 with 964 views | PinnerPaul |
| Air aisa. on 14:57 - Oct 30 by DejR_vu |
The debt is a private debt secured against Air Asia stock. Just because the price of the stock falls below a minimum price agreed as providing adequate cover for the loan doesn't mean the lender can then pick and choose any other assets they fancy. They can call the loans in, or ask for additional security, but they can't hoover up anything else they like the look of. No one would borrow on terms where in the event of a technical breach all assets were exposed. |
You've spoilt everyone's fun now 
I was just getting my placard ready and everything! | | | |
| Air aisa. on 16:05 - Oct 30 with 929 views | EastR |
| Air aisa. on 14:57 - Oct 30 by DejR_vu |
The debt is a private debt secured against Air Asia stock. Just because the price of the stock falls below a minimum price agreed as providing adequate cover for the loan doesn't mean the lender can then pick and choose any other assets they fancy. They can call the loans in, or ask for additional security, but they can't hoover up anything else they like the look of. No one would borrow on terms where in the event of a technical breach all assets were exposed. |
Indeed.
The bank is likely to look for additional collateral, raise the cost of the financing arrangement, or both. | |
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| Air aisa. on 16:08 - Oct 30 with 925 views | Brightonhoop |
| Air aisa. on 12:33 - Oct 30 by whittocksRs |
Not sure banks care about the reputational damage of closing down football clubs. They would happily take on QPR for the stadium, brand name, player contracts, etc. Plenty of value, relatively risk free in that to be shipped on to the highest bidder.
Think Tune are big enough to weather this, but the fact is they're heading towards serious financial trouble. I've seen this sort of thing - the types of press statements they're giving, the briefings against them - enough times in the day job to feel a bit uneasy about it all. |
I suspect you're right Whittocks, a few storms to weather and the utterances from TF about markets undervalueing is classic. I hope I'm wrong. | | | |
| Air aisa. on 16:25 - Oct 30 with 895 views | londonscottish |
| Air aisa. on 12:33 - Oct 30 by whittocksRs |
Not sure banks care about the reputational damage of closing down football clubs. They would happily take on QPR for the stadium, brand name, player contracts, etc. Plenty of value, relatively risk free in that to be shipped on to the highest bidder.
Think Tune are big enough to weather this, but the fact is they're heading towards serious financial trouble. I've seen this sort of thing - the types of press statements they're giving, the briefings against them - enough times in the day job to feel a bit uneasy about it all. |
Yup. What jumped out at me when this story broke was the reference to accounting irregularities.
I used to work for a $billion corporation who encountered some, ahem, accounting regularities and the result was pretty ugly.
See also Tesco PLC...... |  |
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