| No more wingers any more? 19:28 - Aug 30 with 2072 views | TacticalR |
No more wingers any more?
A couple of weeks ago there was a discussion on 5 Live Football Preview between George Riley, John Barnes and Pat Nevin about the role of wingers with most of the interesting contributions made by John Barnes:
John Barnes: 'I don't see him [Sterling] as a winger because when Pat was a winger, and when I was a winger at Watford, you could gauge your success on how many times you got past your full-back and put a cross in, and if nothing came of it they would say 'we will get a new centre-forward'.'
George Riley: 'But you drifted in quite a lot.'
John Barnes: 'That was for Liverpool. I didn't play as an out and out winger for Liverpool. We are talking about a classic winger which I was at Watford, and Pat was. You were in games and the manager would say: 'get down the line and put a cross in'. Now Raheem Sterling doesn't go down the line and put crosses because no one does that any more. So who are the wingers? Look at Theo Walcott, look at Danny Welbeck, who were wingers. So in terms of talking about classic wing play, you get the width and the attacking crosses from full-backs these days. All of these wide players now aren't wingers. The days of the classic winger are gone. I'm not saying it's wrong, I am not saying it's right. But then to judge him [Sterling] as a winger, or Theo Walcott, is a bit harsh.
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We are talking about classic wing play. I am talking about Watford, and wingers who were wingers. You stand out wide, you go down the line, and you put a cross in. That's what you did. You tried to beat him [the left-back or right-back] on the outside. If you were coming inside too much they'll be saying 'what are you coming inside for? Your job is to get down the line and put a cross in'. It was very simple. Whereas now the role has changed. You have so many people now who play on the other side. If you are left-footed you play on the right, you come in on your left foot. Raheem Sterling prefers to play on the left coming in on his right foot. That means he's not going down the line to put a cross in. Therefore I believe that, at the very highest level, in the Premier League and in the Champions League, wingers don't exist any more.
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The biggest change is that you don't have a 6foot3 centre-forward any more. In the old days everyone had a big centre-forward, so what you would do is get a cross in. Whereas now you don't have that apart from Benteke. So if you don't have that type of centre-forward any more why do you need a winger?'
A couple of things struck me. The behaviour of the new inside wingers described is exactly what Hoilett does. That is what he did at Blackburn. Should we berate him for doing what has always done?
Is the reason that Austin has not been snapped up that nobody has centre-forwards any more? Or is it that if you get an Austin then you need to get a Phillips? |  |
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| No more wingers any more? on 19:52 - Aug 30 with 1987 views | connell10 |
All i can say is i fell in love with wing play when i first saw dave thomas, i love that classic wing play, it kinda excites me! |  |
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| No more wingers any more? on 00:05 - Aug 31 with 1824 views | TacticalR |
| No more wingers any more? on 19:52 - Aug 30 by connell10 |
All i can say is i fell in love with wing play when i first saw dave thomas, i love that classic wing play, it kinda excites me! |
Barnes was insistent that that kind of winger has gone from the game for good, and if anyone is going to put in crosses it's going to be the full-backs (pretty optimistic as defenders like Danny Simpson can't cross).
The thing that came home to me when I was listening to Barnes is that when we are talking about wingers (and what they should be doing) we are often talking about different animals without realising it. | |
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| No more wingers any more? on 00:20 - Aug 31 with 1794 views | bosh67 |
We have Ryan Manning coming through. |  |
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| No more wingers any more? on 00:22 - Aug 31 with 1784 views | Neil_SI |
There is some truth to it, definitely.
In the modern day the classic wing play leaves you exposed on the counter attack, especially if that player is caught out of position and is not physically strong enough or disciplined enough to get back once play has broken down.
If you cut inside a lot, the distance to recover is reduced dramatically and immediately gives you a better chance to recover and stay compact to combat any threat on the counter.
In addition, a lot of teams now operate with one up top, which reduces the chances of classic wing play finding target in the box. It is in a nutshell more predictable where the ball will go both in terms of the winger in possession of the ball and then his supply and delivery.
When you come inside, you have the player on the ball able to play through balls, use an in-swinging cross or take a shot. Therefore, that alone is more unpredictable and difficult to deal with. It encourages runs to be made by the striker(s) as well as players coming from deep who are willing to burst beyond. It also allows for a square pass too, so it only needs a player to support and join in line with the play to become a threat.
Having said all of that, there is another reason as well. Classic wing play is also more difficult, because you're asking a player to beat his man. At the level these guys compete at nowadays, beating someone is more difficult than it used to be. Players are technically, tactically and physically more aware of their responsibilities.
When you come inside an open up options, it's easier and somewhat safer to make a choice and keep the play alive.
But Charlie Austin can feed equally well off of classic wing play and modern football. He simply comes alive in the box, is strong and powerful and usually always makes the goalkeeper work because he can get his shots away. For him, it's just a case of whether you think you can get him the ball in and around the penalty area. You don't have to put it on a sixpence for him, he's capable of fashioning out chances himself by brute force and he's proven he can score plenty of goals in a struggling QPR side last season in the Premier League.
The question mark for him and Junior Hoilett, is whether they have enough going for them in their all round play that will tempt a club into making an offer. Some clubs will look for a striker for more than just goals, which most of the top clubs require, especially those who tend to operate with just the one up front. |  | | |
| No more wingers any more? on 00:52 - Aug 31 with 1739 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| No more wingers any more? on 00:22 - Aug 31 by Neil_SI |
There is some truth to it, definitely.
In the modern day the classic wing play leaves you exposed on the counter attack, especially if that player is caught out of position and is not physically strong enough or disciplined enough to get back once play has broken down.
If you cut inside a lot, the distance to recover is reduced dramatically and immediately gives you a better chance to recover and stay compact to combat any threat on the counter.
In addition, a lot of teams now operate with one up top, which reduces the chances of classic wing play finding target in the box. It is in a nutshell more predictable where the ball will go both in terms of the winger in possession of the ball and then his supply and delivery.
When you come inside, you have the player on the ball able to play through balls, use an in-swinging cross or take a shot. Therefore, that alone is more unpredictable and difficult to deal with. It encourages runs to be made by the striker(s) as well as players coming from deep who are willing to burst beyond. It also allows for a square pass too, so it only needs a player to support and join in line with the play to become a threat.
Having said all of that, there is another reason as well. Classic wing play is also more difficult, because you're asking a player to beat his man. At the level these guys compete at nowadays, beating someone is more difficult than it used to be. Players are technically, tactically and physically more aware of their responsibilities.
When you come inside an open up options, it's easier and somewhat safer to make a choice and keep the play alive.
But Charlie Austin can feed equally well off of classic wing play and modern football. He simply comes alive in the box, is strong and powerful and usually always makes the goalkeeper work because he can get his shots away. For him, it's just a case of whether you think you can get him the ball in and around the penalty area. You don't have to put it on a sixpence for him, he's capable of fashioning out chances himself by brute force and he's proven he can score plenty of goals in a struggling QPR side last season in the Premier League.
The question mark for him and Junior Hoilett, is whether they have enough going for them in their all round play that will tempt a club into making an offer. Some clubs will look for a striker for more than just goals, which most of the top clubs require, especially those who tend to operate with just the one up front. |
I love Neil's contributions, including this one. Insightful as always.
However, the phrase 'in and around the penalty area' makes me wretch because of Andy Townsend : ( |  | | |
| No more wingers any more? on 11:06 - Aug 31 with 1545 views | Watford_Ranger |
I don't think Hoilett's lack of ability is due to changing trends in football. If anything he'd be worse as a traditional right winger as he can't cross the ball and almost never beats a man.
Bolasie and Zaha at Palace seem traditional wing types. Phillips when he plays on the right certainly is. |  | | |
| No more wingers any more? on 11:35 - Aug 31 with 1509 views | TacticalR |
| No more wingers any more? on 11:06 - Aug 31 by Watford_Ranger |
I don't think Hoilett's lack of ability is due to changing trends in football. If anything he'd be worse as a traditional right winger as he can't cross the ball and almost never beats a man.
Bolasie and Zaha at Palace seem traditional wing types. Phillips when he plays on the right certainly is. |
The thing I thought was interesting about what Barnes was saying, was that these right-footed inside wingers who play on the left are actually doing what they are supposed to do. Traditional crossing is not part of their game.
Hoilett's problem is that even within that narrow role he is a one-trick pony. Even when he is playing well he is another one of our 'anti-social' players who can't see a pass to save his life. When he gets the ball he just runs towards the goal without looking up, so at best all he can do is take a shot with his right foot. When it comes off it looks good. Those are the goals you see on Youtube for Blackburn. My point is that if he can only do one thing we might as well use him do the one thing he can do - there's no point in sticking him out on the left as we did against away against Arsenal and expecting him to cross. | |
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| No more wingers any more? on 11:37 - Aug 31 with 1498 views | Watford_Ranger |
| No more wingers any more? on 11:35 - Aug 31 by TacticalR |
The thing I thought was interesting about what Barnes was saying, was that these right-footed inside wingers who play on the left are actually doing what they are supposed to do. Traditional crossing is not part of their game.
Hoilett's problem is that even within that narrow role he is a one-trick pony. Even when he is playing well he is another one of our 'anti-social' players who can't see a pass to save his life. When he gets the ball he just runs towards the goal without looking up, so at best all he can do is take a shot with his right foot. When it comes off it looks good. Those are the goals you see on Youtube for Blackburn. My point is that if he can only do one thing we might as well use him do the one thing he can do - there's no point in sticking him out on the left as we did against away against Arsenal and expecting him to cross. |
I'd much rather he just didn't play at all | | | |
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| No more wingers any more? on 11:48 - Aug 31 with 1469 views | TacticalR |
| No more wingers any more? on 11:37 - Aug 31 by Watford_Ranger |
I'd much rather he just didn't play at all |
So would I. However, at the moment it looks like we can't give him away. | |
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| No more wingers any more? on 11:55 - Aug 31 with 1446 views | isawqpratwcity |
| No more wingers any more? on 11:48 - Aug 31 by TacticalR |
So would I. However, at the moment it looks like we can't give him away. |
Then loan him away. |  |
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